Why Engies are the worst prof

[_________KrazyKanuck]

Originally posted by ReelBigFish


1. fixers are dark blue on every nanoskill.

Engies have the highest average IP cost for skills of ANY prof(engie 26.0, fixer 19.8) so i don't wanna hear the BS about blue nano skills. Engie is currently the WORST damaging proffession in teams. For a weapon damaging engie. 3 dark blue evades. dark blue ranged init. dark blue shottie and fling. 2 dark blue nano skills. Oh and by dark blue i don't mean IP mods of 20-24 like you fixers have i mean like 30-40 like us engies have. If you wanna start whining about IP costs you fixers have it some of the easiest.

Thanks munch. nice to see someone else is saying what i have been trying to bash into they're heads for the last month.

[_____________Ayvalen]

Ok, whoever wants to come rant about how their profession sucks worse than the engineer, feel free, because it only shows how badly they've spent their ip or how poor they are, since NO profession sucks like the Engineer profession.

Engineers have NOTHING to contribute to the game, aside from a really high level pistol/grenade buff.

Yay... we get ACs. Has anyone bothered to actually look at how much AC you get from both an aura and a normal AC buff? At level 130 I could cast enough for 1k AC as long as the person reciving the buff stayed very near me and I had an MP to give me the nanoskill buffs I needed. This takes approximately 40-50 NCU, which most people don't want to give up. It also does almost NOTHING with the current AC rules in regards to decreasing damage. If you get hit by an vetran or higher this extra AC does zip. Reflect shields? I'm sure vetrans probably get a warm tickle from that awesome 23 points of their damage that comes back.

Then we get to pets. I'm not really going into them, we all know they suck. Sure they can take nearly anything in the game aside from a real mean, but they can't deal with a 3' wide doorway.

PVP? I laugh every time I see an engy try. All of you engineers going around with 'freshman' WTG! You'd be neophyte if you were playing a trader, but still, good job! Who cares about PVP anyway, with super high level healers looking out for all their lowbie pals it's already screwed to hell, but that's a topic for some other post.

Anyone who even thinks of trying to say that engineers aren't the worst profession has never been 130+ level themself. See, all you engineers that think you have this great character that is going to rock all the way to 200 are going to hate AO as much as me when you hit that cap. Don't EVER expect a team to take you again. I've teamed once since level 133 and gained one level, in the only team I could find. Guess what that was... 4 engineers, a trader that felt sorry for us, and an enforcer who was mainly there to chat. WHOo HOO!

If you're playing an engineer now, unless you're just playing it for fun up to level 130ish, expect to abandon the character long before you think you'll be able to cast that nice slayer pet without begging for buffs from traders and MP's.

If you want a real high level char, go play a trader or an MP. Either that or expect to sit on your ass for long periods of time staring blankly at a screen while your life ticks away, and get a scripted macro for '130+ Engineer LFG' so you don't wear your fingers to stubs on your keyboard.

And yes, I was one of the many morons who bought into the class thinking it was a fast way to advance. They really ought to put a warning on the class in character creation, "will advance to 130, then you'll be back here."

[Mysticknight]

with the upcoming nerf to OE pets I wonder how many engineers will just up and quit the game completely.
I left for 3 months,came back hoping for some changes to the class.
The engineer class shouldnt have to rely on MP or trader buffs to get a decent pet, they should of had a self buff for that
even if the buff was only for 20 to 30 points.
Im a nanomage engie with all my implants built to get the best possible pet.
using self buffs and nelebs robe best pet i get at 93 is a lvl 100
implants are QL 126-127
Im stuck doing green mobs to lvl, wont even try to do a mission.
I learned back when i was lvl 75 that missions and pets = dead engie

[Corily2]

i agree

[Whiterrabbit]

this arguement is pointless, no matter what i say, you guys will come back with "no, we're more gimped"

if you want to believe that engies are more gimped, feel free to do so. ill disagree with you, but its pointless to argue with you.

[_____________Trosida]

That if the engineers were actually *finished* (i.e. we got a good series of nifty gadgets that were useful and engy only) and if pet pathing were fixed we'd be much better off than we are now.

As it is though, there is nothing for an engy to do beyond a bot. Once you've done that... (shrug)... everything else just becomes 'bigger numbers'. If tradeskills had meaning, engies also had their gadgets, and this game became somewhat less focused on being nothing more than a shooting gallery... you'd just about have a game here.

[Corily2]

i think that pathfinding + kamikaze would fix almost all engie's current problem

Killdarules, engi 141

[_____________Trosida]

Kami bots have been on the table for months and no sign of implementation any time soon. Furthermore, I do not believe that what will probably prove to be a very limited addition to the engineer arsenal will make up for the fact that the class is woefully incomplete. We'll need more than one or two gadgets (aggression trimmer, broken, and kami bot not implemented). The other ideas, jet packs, pvp based gadgets, just all kinds of team buff and opponent team debuff *gadgets* not nanos will give this class the definition it needs.

We had a great thread on just this topic around here somewhere all kinds of incredible gadgets were suggested.

[_____________Yureiko]

Originally posted by ReelBigFish
this arguement is pointless, no matter what i say, you guys will come back with "no, we're more gimped"

if you want to believe that engies are more gimped, feel free to do so. ill disagree with you, but its pointless to argue with you.

One could say the same of you and other non engineers. Some of this stems from everyone's wish to get some "lovin'" for their class. The rest stems from the frustration of taking what is supposed to be a non-combat class and thrusting it into combat because that's all this game offers.

The problems with fixers and engineers are essentially the same. If either class had their non combat stuff working properly (the gadgets Trosida mentions, the fixing of B&E and disarming for fixers so that they actually have some use and other things showing on both forums) then these two classes would be a far cry from gimped. (Yes, PvP is not in their stars.)

However, that isn't the case. Then, let's compare the other complaints. Bots have bad pathing and currently can't effectively draw off aggro. This is very true. I don't play an engie, I play a fixer. But I have the opportunity to watch an engineer in acvtion almost everytime I play. Because Trosida plays his engie right next to me, I have a near first hand experience in that class. And he does of the Fixer as well. So, in combat, especially in missions, it's very frustrating when the bot suddenly is not there, because we (neither of who are tank material) really need it to pull the creature off of us.

Now, I as a fixer can pull aggro by snaring. I can also get us out of the place when the sh*t hits the fan. However, despite what anyone says about beacon warp, it is not as useful to the engie as it is to his team mates. Why? Can he use it on himself? No.

As a fixer, I have a self only transport nano and I have a team nano.

Another comparison is healing. the only healing and engie gets is first aid or treatment, both of which are blue or dark blue. Us fixers have blue-green treatment and green first aid. And, lest we not forget, fixers have HoTs. Engies do not. There has been many occassions when, Trosida's yelled out to me "Give me a HoT!"

Now, granted if I group with a doc or a crat, and I've grouped with docs about three times and crats never, the snares and healing I can offer aren't very worthwhile.

On the other side of the coin, when the bot is where he should be and he has all the aggro, all I do is add a little bit of damage.

And, with several nano skills that are green, Trosida has the opportunity to get nanos like his bots that are nearly 20 levels higher (without over equipping.) And I am no slouch when it comes to getting Fixer nanos early. I got the quick team grid freak almost 15 levels early which is good. but that was rare. I spent about 5 or six levels worth of IP to to that. So the dark blue nanos are a problem for the fixer.

But at least in combat, which is the only thing that counts now, the fixer can shoot, can snare, can heal, has good evades (even better with GA whgich is nearly impossible to get), has good speed, has some decent choices in weapons, and can get the heck out of dodge.

An engineer probably has pistols that are only worth while on crits, his bot is half the time not there, and if it is it can't hold aggro so he has to keeping running which he doesn't have the speed for, he has armor nanos which still don't stop hits and also seem to have a similar but as GA, he can't heal himself unless he's not in a fight or has high first aid, and finally he has the much touted beacon warp which does him absolutely no good in combat, because if he takes a minute while in combat to bring a team member in he will likely be dead because he can't trim or heal his bot.

Yes, Trosida can when the bot is working properly which it hasn't since 14.0 ( and whose pathing has been getting worse since patch 13.5 or something) he can take on reds where I, a fixer, can barely take on yellows (if it's ranged I can do it. If it's melee forget it.). However, the case is now, I can still take on some yellows and he can barely take on yellows because either the bot is not there or it won't pull the mob off him anyway. And that's both ranged and melee.

So who's more gimped right now? Well, it's like this: Fixer's are bad and haven't gotten much better in a long long time. But, engineers, for all their damage out put via the bot, can't put out damage when the bot isn't there. And if the engie dies what what the point any way.

Thus, I'd have to say Engineers, at this time are more messed up. What the devs have done is taken a class that, in terms of combat, was working fairly well and then messed them up through bugs and poor programming. it's not even a design issue, like fixer blue nanos skills. It's a dang programming error that keeps getting worse. Everything patch that is added increases the problem. And the irony is the MOB will easily follow you throughout the mission.

So that's the comparison of a fixer and engineer. Who's more gimped in combat? Engineers. Hands down.

[__________Munchausen]

Originally posted by ReelBigFish


1. fixers are dark blue on every nanoskill. run buff is useful for getting away. grid armour is rare.

2. unless you pull to it.

3. quite a lot of things, definatly useful in a group situation.

4. i dont know much about them.

I didn't realize that you thought these were arguements about why engies weren't the worst. I'll give a little more detail. No high level group is going to pull to the bot as it would slow the time down in a mission considerably and remember most do team missions, which require going up and pathing on 2nd+ levels. So that is out.

Beacon warp isn't useful in group situation other than to save a few minutes of running back and forth at the boss mob level. Since everyone does Broken Shores missions (completely optimal) saving a few minutes is all an engie's Beacon Warp would do in teams that wanted to kill a boss and save beforehand (very very few groups btw).

Auras stink, now you know. The other buffs stink as well. Other than the reflect there isn't a buff we have that anyone would want.

Munchausen RK-2 170 Engie

[_____________Yureiko]

the worst pet pathing problem.

This is when Trosida says, "where is my bot?" And he queries it and it's somehwhere, goodness knows where. It says following but nothing happens. He can run back for it and can't find it. The worse time this happens is when we get attacked.

Let me explain this so one understands exactly what the problem is. The bot IS the engie's weapon. His pistols generally don't amount to much and are there for the bonuses to his skills.

This is like a fixer suddenly losing his gun (s). Now you have no effective way of dealing damage.

And, as I said above, since this game srevolves mostly around damage this puts the engie in a very poor position.

I mean if he can't take a mission without me, a pathetic fixer, there's a problem.

[Whiterrabbit]

so essentially what you are saying is that if pet pathing was fixed, you'd be happy?

hell if pet pathing was working properly, engis would be right up there amoung the greats. i hope they fix this for you. (and my mp/engi/crat (all below lvl 40))
until that point, you arent much use in missions, but i still believe fixers are worse off. we have different opinions, each of us plays one class more than the other.
i hope you guys get your pathing fixed.

[_____________Trosida]

If pet pathing were fixed, and the aggro trimmers fixed we'd be back to about where we were prior to 14.0. Until OE hits, but what the outcome of that will be we'll have to wait and see.

I, personally, feel that the problems of this class, and most others, go MUCH deeper than WHAAAH I DON'T DO ENOUGH DAMAGE (which is the common cry on every profession's forum).

Engineers regardless of what is done are a fragment of an MP. One attack bot that is average in ability (not the place for that argument). Engineers really have one thing going for them, the bot.

I'll be happy, when pet pathing is fixed, the aggro trimmers are fixed, and engineers actually live up to their name and get some gadgets that are unique to them.

Oh I'll also be happy when AO decides the EQ model is NOT the best model and reverts back to the original idea of: the best gear in the game will be player made.

However, as long as the focus is entirely on combat there is no reason to play anything other than a soldier, mp, enforcer, or trader. Those four classes cover every aspect of this game far bettter than the other nine (!) classes.

The problem facing engineers (and fixers too) is that there is nothing for these classes to do outside of combat. Unfortunatley, neither class was designed as a combat class. The fault lies with this shooting-gallery called a game. If engineers were finished, and the game focus move away from such a combat-centric view, both of our classes would have their issues resolved.

From what I've seen the only real solution for fixer problems is the single solution that has been entirely nixed and out shouted by DO MORE DAMAGE... fix the nano skills from being all dark blue.

The rest is just icing for fixers, a re-tweak of the actual nanos (like the summon line to make it useful), a few more smg options that boost stats or do some more damage or have a firing rate actually comparable to an smg. So long as the nano skills remain where they are, Fixers are screwed.

Engineers, so long as we don't have our gadgets so long as we're actually incomplete, we're screwed.

However, as Yureiko stated, as this moment in time due to the combat-centric nature of the game... engineers are more screwed because they have no versatility.

[Corily2]

yup

all we need is fixed pathfinding and aggro trimmers
and perhaps some gadgets for additional dmg or usefull in pvp (jetpacks, kamikaze, ...) i think taht the blindness should be modified and should work in pvm, perhas should tehy make disc only, or only available at high lvl, i duuno but this would really be cool

[______________Scorus]

Originally posted by Munchausen
I've played an engie my whole AO career and Engies weren't always the worst profession but they are now

Boy, thanks for that post, I really needed a good belly laugh! Even just this first sentence where you admit you have only played one profession before going on to say that this profession is the worst, sheer brilliance!

The way that you ignore the fact that fixers can't get good weapons and have dark blue nano skills, that crats can't use charms after level 120 and are stuck with only a pet much worse than yours, and all the myriad problems that have resulted in a 1:10 adventurer to engineer ration in Rubi-Ka. Sheer brilliance! Please, keep them coming.

Scorus

[Mysticknight]

1:10 advent to engie ???????
get your facts straight

All characters
adventurer 3329 7.07 %
agent 4124 8.75 %
bureaucrat 2054 4.36 %
doctor 3827 8.12 %
enforcer 4911 10.42 %
engineer 4169 8.85 %
fixer 2677 5.68 %
martial artist 6424 13.64 %
meta-physicist 4241 9 %
nano-technician 3575 7.59 %
soldier 5267 11.18 %
trader 2513 5.33 %
total 47111 100 %

[_____________Yureiko]

Originally posted by ReelBigFish
so essentially what you are saying is that if pet pathing was fixed, you'd be happy?

hell if pet pathing was working properly, engis would be right up there amoung the greats. i hope they fix this for you. (and my mp/engi/crat (all below lvl 40))
until that point, you arent much use in missions, but i still believe fixers are worse off. we have different opinions, each of us plays one class more than the other.
i hope you guys get your pathing fixed.

I have to say that if pet pathing and trimming were fixed, engies would probably be among the first to admit that fixers are truly messed up. I know Trosida would.

However, as Trosida says in his above post, that is not the end all be all of the engie problem. Once you remove the pet pathing/ trimming problems, engies still don't live up to their class expectations. Look at his sig line. The quote from funcom's own files state that engie pets should be the best and the should have a lot of neat gadgets.

Fixers on the other hand, will still be totally messed up. But this is because FunCom (as Jim Salabim has posted) refuse to do what is required to fix Fixers: give the fixer some greenish nanoskills in return for lowring some non essential tradeskills. The other problems have to do with b&E and disarm being mostly unneeded in missions, because the locks are never to hard for anyone to do it and the teams only want the dumb rollerat.

So, yes, once pet pathing/trimming is fixed, engineers can return to their combat tank status, but it comes down to exactly what tros pointed out: if we all just wanted combat oriented characters why not take soldiers or enforcers or MPs? And since this is never going to be more than a combat oriented game what's the difference anyway?

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by KrazyKanuck


Engies have the highest average IP cost for skills of ANY prof(engie 26.0, fixer 19.8) so i don't wanna hear the BS about blue nano skills. Engie is currently the WORST damaging proffession in teams. For a weapon damaging engie. 3 dark blue evades. dark blue ranged init. dark blue shottie and fling. 2 dark blue nano skills. Oh and by dark blue i don't mean IP mods of 20-24 like you fixers have i mean like 30-40 like us engies have. If you wanna start whining about IP costs you fixers have it some of the easiest.

Thanks munch. nice to see someone else is saying what i have been trying to bash into they're heads for the last month.

Ok, step away from the crack pipe. Sure the Fixer has some low cost skills.

TOO BAD THEY AREN’T WORTH THE IP COST.

Yea, I can max my Green Vehicle Air, Ground and Water. Oh baby, I’m so uber. Hey look, I’ve got some relatively cheap trade skills. Who needs to cast nanos anyway when I can sort of build things? The Fixer is already gimped with every IP point carefully spent towards combat skill. Our relativly low trade skill cost mean nothing to us because they go unused.

Aww, I forgot about the green Trap Disarmament. I am starting to see your point now. Every Fixer maxes that baby to disarm those non-lethal traps.

Please.

---

So basically you are whining because Engineers don’t do well standing toe-to-toe with mobs, shooting at them. Here is a news flash for you. You are not supposed to. That is why you have your pet. Pathing sucks. I know, but that does not justify Engineers having better weapon or defensive skill.

When your pet works, your profession does quite nicely. Fixers suck all the time. Sure you have problems, but you are no where near the worse.

[Corily2]

fixer don't sux that much

just look grid armor and u ll ce if u sux ....

have teamed with Smallfoe (trader 150+), he had MKII and was tanking, mobs could NOT hit him, very impressionant. it works the same way as blindness nano

so don't forget that fixer to be good have to find some rare nanos ...

we don't have them to be good

[__________Munchausen]

Originally posted by Crin


So basically you are whining because Engineers don’t do well standing toe-to-toe with mobs, shooting at them. Here is a news flash for you. You are not supposed to. That is why you have your pet. Pathing sucks. I know, but that does not justify Engineers having better weapon or defensive skill.

When your pet works, your profession does quite nicely. Fixers suck all the time. Sure you have problems, but you are no where near the worse.

Pet pathing is the whole issue. Pet pathing doesn't work in team situations. As that is the bulk of the 100+ AO experience, engies end up being the worst. Stripped of having a pet, it's fairly obvious that engies are going to be wretched while MPs (mochams, other buffs) and Crats (calms, charms, exp buffs, crit buffs) are going to still be alright. Nobody on this thread thinks that engies are inherently horrible. But when we can't use our pets, we simply can't be as good as any other profession.

On a different note, this isn't Fixers vs. Engies. Fixers are right at the bottom too. The only difference is that Fixers have been acknowledged as needing help while Engies have not. I agree that what FC gives Fixers needs to improve, but as long as FC believes that Engies are an ok profession in the new team mission era, there needs to be threads like this one.

Munchausen RK-2 Engie