Why Engies are the worst prof

[_____________Trosida]

Originally posted by Munchausen


On a different note, this isn't Fixers vs. Engies. Fixers are right at the bottom too. The only difference is that Fixers have been acknowledged as needing help while Engies have not. I agree that what FC gives Fixers needs to improve, but as long as FC believes that Engies are an ok profession in the new team mission era, there needs to be threads like this one.

Munchausen RK-2 Engie

I concur whole heartedly. Save for the fact that even with pet pathing fixed the problems of our class run deeper than simple damage output (pet or no pet). We need our identity.

So do the fixers.

[Mysticknight]

In my opinion engies and fixers are tied in last place
what would fix the engies is
pet pathing
tradeskills worth the IP invested
and
last but not least a self only buff to raise t/s and m/c

[_____________Trosida]

Originally posted by WillForce
In my opinion engies and fixers are tied in last place
what would fix the engies is
pet pathing
tradeskills worth the IP invested
and
last but not least a self only buff to raise t/s and m/c

A *gadget* that has to be built has limited charges is engy and no drop that raises t/s and m/c .

[Mysticknight]

yep that would work

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by misto
fixer don't sux that much

just look grid armor and u ll ce if u sux ....

have teamed with Smallfoe (trader 150+), he had MKII and was tanking, mobs could NOT hit him, very impressionant. it works the same way as blindness nano

so don't forget that fixer to be good have to find some rare nanos ...

we don't have them to be good

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

You can’t count Grid Armor. By design not every Fixer will be able to get it. In fact it is suppose to be a status symbol and very few Fixers should have it. All the other Fixers, such as myself, have to make due with other armor.

--

Sorry Munchausen for the Fixer vs Engineer theme here. But you have to expect that for a thread titled “Why Engies are the worst prof”. Like I said, you do have problems, but to claim you are the worst just invites comparisons.

Finally, I’m level 119 and have teamed with Engineers that have done quite well for themselves. I think that is the main reason I disagreed with the original premise of this thread. I’ve seen otherwise.

[Whiterrabbit]

"have teamed with Smallfoe (trader 150+), he had MKII and was tanking, mobs could NOT hit him, very impressionant"

traders cant use grid armour.....

and you cant count grid armour as a reason why fixers are good, very few have it. its like counting nullity as a reason nts kick ass.

i agree pathing needs work, but "why engis are the worst proff" kinda got me riled up

[__________Munchausen]

Originally posted by Crin


Sorry Munchausen for the Fixer vs Engineer theme here. But you have to expect that for a thread titled “Why Engies are the worst prof”. Like I said, you do have problems, but to claim you are the worst just invites comparisons.

Finally, I’m level 119 and have teamed with Engineers that have done quite well for themselves. I think that is the main reason I disagreed with the original premise of this thread. I’ve seen otherwise.

Hehe - I can path the bot quite often, and in some slower teams (when I team with 120-140 teams) I can be the fastest to move around. However, when I team with those at my level, especially the higher damage dealing professions, I can often lag behind and do very little damage. There are also certain rooms in team missions that "trap" pets and the likelyhood of finding a room like this increases dramatically at ql 185+ missions. In teams where mobs go down in 10 seconds, bots rarely arrive in time to do much impact. Last, if the upstairs button is a sprint from where we kill the last mob, the bot will almost always get caught somewhere, and an engie would lag behind pathing the bot. Since almost every engie uses a bot that they need buffs for, it means that an engie is slave to escorting a bot around till they find the "up". Fixers might be the worst profession when an engie gets to the battle, but the engie still downstairs, kicking over chairs, begging a slayer to teleport to him like some young mother with a toddler isn't a pretty sight.

Let's put it this way:
Fixers: The worst prof on the level of combat.
Engies: The worst prof downstairs.

Munchausen

[Corily2]

i agree with Munchausen

in the dev chat, some days ago, develloppers DID NOT KNOW that they were so pathfindings bugs issues

we had to tell them that 50% of pet class thread in AO forums was about that

i think if we want FC to look at our post, we have to gime as title "Cosmik is gay ..."

with fixed pathfinding/trimmers and gadgets that would worth our ips spent in tradeskills, engies would be fixed and this should not cost FC devs a lot of time

[______________Scorus]

Originally posted by WillForce
1:10 advent to engie ???????
get your facts straight

All characters
adventurer 3329 7.07 %
engineer 4169 8.85 %

Interesting, and exactly the stats that I would expect an engineer to focus on, but not what I was referring to. These are all the characters that have been created on active accounts. I'm referring to characters that are actually being played. Next time you are in an area like Broken Shores or somewhere else where high levels hang out, do /list adventurer and /list engineer and see if the 7% and 8% level of equality seems to hold true. Heck, just the antiguardians site which I assume you are quoting above shows that the ratio for 100+ level adventurers to engies jumps to 1:2.

Of course my 1:10 was tongue-in-cheek, just like the rest of my message. But if you really believe that the percentages you quote are indicative of what professions are being played, you haven't tripped over the warbots lagging up every whompa and grid exit in Rubi-Ka lately.

Scorus

[Corily2]

yup it's true that adv need more fix then we do but our fix won't take a long time for fc while adv fixs will

that's WHY fc should come read the post in these forums and fix them quick

[Mysticknight]

Originally posted by Scorus


you haven't tripped over the warbots lagging up every whompa and grid exit in Rubi-Ka lately.

Scorus

nope and I probably never will
after next patch I doubt you will see as many engies playing

[__________Munchausen]

Originally posted by Scorus


Interesting, and exactly the stats that I would expect an engineer to focus on, but not what I was referring to. These are all the characters that have been created on active accounts. I'm referring to characters that are actually being played. Next time you are in an area like Broken Shores or somewhere else where high levels hang out, do /list adventurer and /list engineer and see if the 7% and 8% level of equality seems to hold true. Heck, just the antiguardians site which I assume you are quoting above shows that the ratio for 100+ level adventurers to engies jumps to 1:2.

Of course my 1:10 was tongue-in-cheek, just like the rest of my message. But if you really believe that the percentages you quote are indicative of what professions are being played, you haven't tripped over the warbots lagging up every whompa and grid exit in Rubi-Ka lately.

Scorus

First, play statistics do not tell a true story about character power. MAs have always been one of the most popular classes even before they were augmented recently. Traders are the second least played profession yet no trader would ever argue they are underpowered. Here are some telling statistics though for this thread:

Of all chars, engies comprise: 8.85%
Of all chars over 50: 9.92 %
Of all chars over 100: 10.16 % (prolly what you are you whining about at mid levels)
Of all chars over 150: 5.76 %

Our numbers almost half between 100 and 150. Why? Read the thread.

A last stat. Of all characters, pet classes (MP, Crat, Engie) comprise 22.21%. At level 150+, they comprise 14.95%. That's a drop of 7.28%.

I'm not sure why you are complaining about adventurers anyhow. All you can ask on this board is to get the designers attention for augmentation. Adventurers have gotten that and were slotted to be augmented even ahead of agents (who will be pumped up in 14.2). Once again, there has be no talk about engies needing augmentation and there should be.

Munchausen

P.S. I team with a crat that charms at 165.

[_________KrazyKanuck]

Originally posted by Crin


So basically you are whining because Engineers don’t do well standing toe-to-toe with mobs, shooting at them. Here is a news flash for you. You are not supposed to. That is why you have your pet. Pathing sucks. I know, but that does not justify Engineers having better weapon or defensive skill.

When your pet works, your profession does quite nicely. Fixers suck all the time. Sure you have problems, but you are no where near the worse.

News flash for you dumbass i have never carried a weapon in my life. I still take aggro quite often my aggder is 100% def at all times. I pound on my ql122 aggressiveness trimmer non stop and it still take aggro 3-4 times PER FIGHT. Unless i can stay atleast 1 room away with door closed. Then only if my bot is fighting more then 1 mob will i get aggro'd

[_________KrazyKanuck]

Originally posted by Munchausen


First, play statistics do not tell a true story about character power. MAs have always been one of the most popular classes even before they were augmented recently. Traders are the second least played profession yet no trader would ever argue they are underpowered. Here are some telling statistics though for this thread:

Of all chars, engies comprise: 8.85%
Of all chars over 50: 9.92 %
Of all chars over 100: 10.16 % (prolly what you are you whining about at mid levels)
Of all chars over 150: 5.76 %

and it drops down from that 5.76% too

all pet profs are severely gimped at high levels right now. And engie being totally pet reliant even more so then the others.

For example look at players over lvl 185. Lets take a guess at the results.

2 crats
2 engies
3 MPs.

There are more MAs at lvl 200 then there are all 3 pet classes over 185.

fixer for the record has 5 over 185. more then crats and engies combined.

[______________Scorus]

Originally posted by Munchausen
Of all chars, engies comprise: 8.85%
Of all chars over 50: 9.92 %
Of all chars over 100: 10.16 % (prolly what you are you whining about at mid levels)
Of all chars over 150: 5.76 %

Our numbers almost half between 100 and 150. Why? Read the thread.

I agree that engies have problems that need to be addressed over 150, but to a certain extent that only offsets their incredible power in the 50-100 range (which results in so many of them hitting level 100+). That power will be seriously lessened in 14.2, at which point I think Funcom should look at what they can do for the 150+ engineer. MPs have the same problems at high levels, btw.

A last stat. Of all characters, pet classes (MP, Crat, Engie) comprise 22.21%. At level 150+, they comprise 14.95%. That's a drop of 7.28%.

Yep, I play a crat and MP. I would think that kind of drop would be obvious since you get the best pet possible around level 150 (lower for MPs) but the opposition keeps getting better and better. Right now an MP or engineer can carry a team at lower levels and then, to a certain extent, has to be carried by a team at the higher levels. 14.2 will probably disrupt that balance, however, and that will have to be addressed. But I still contend that it needs to wait until after Fixers, Adventurers and Crats have been addressed.

I'm not sure why you are complaining about adventurers anyhow. All you can ask on this board is to get the designers attention for augmentation. Adventurers have gotten that and were slotted to be augmented even ahead of agents (who will be pumped up in 14.2).

Until those augmentations are in place, I'll complain. Do you remember the crat augmentations that were announced by Savant over seven months ago? Barely half of those are in place at this point and Funcom ignores requests for updates on the rest (Paperwork tradeskills, briefcases, etc.). At this juncture, I don't take Funcom at their word until I see the results in-game.

P.S. I team with a crat that charms at 165.

Yeah, the actual range at which a crat can't charm is generally considered to be 115-160 (give or take a few levels depending on equipment, etc.). But that is almost 1/4 of the game during which we can't use what is supposed to be our main attack form.

And I don't understand how a bunch of engineers can get together to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of their profession and always ignore tradeskills. I had always assumed that people took engineers because they enjoyed the duality of pets and tradeskills, but all I ever hear is that they want to do leet damage.

Scorus

[_____________Trosida]

I object, I constantly raise the issue of gadgets and therefore tradeskills. My view is leet pet damage or no, engineers will never be complete, or comparable to other pet classes, until they are completed. Completing the engineers will require the addition of gadgets and through that making tradeskills something meaningful.

However, give the combat-centric view of this game, it is obvious FC has no intention at all of doing anything outside of combat, so (sigh) engineers are relegated to being a completely inferior mp due to a lack of versatility.

There are also numerous threads around here discussing tradeskills and gadgets. It is definitely talked about to a great extent on these forums and the 'dream mission' thread in the patch 14.0 forum.

An increase to bot damage (and pathing) does not resolve the true problems facing the engineer class. Ala a complete lack of identity.

[Mysticknight]

Originally posted by Scorus


I had always assumed that people took engineers because they enjoyed the duality of pets and tradeskills, but all I ever hear is that they want to do leet damage.

Scorus

there is a problem with that
Tradeskills are a waste of IP at this point in time

with the coming IP reset i will be getting rid of half of my tradeskills I mean why bother raising something that they will never fix.
how long has the game been out now?

[__________Munchausen]

I agree that engies have problems that need to be addressed over 150, but to a certain extent that only offsets their incredible power in the 50-100 range (which results in so many of them hitting level 100+). That power will be seriously lessened in 14.2, at which point I think Funcom should look at what they can do for the 150+ engineer. MPs have the same problems at high levels, btw.

Odd argument. You admit that the situation is bad for engies post 150 and also that our power in the 50-100 range is being seriously lessened. MPs don't have the same problems as they have buffs which people want as well as a very good nuke at high levels and also have a pet that does more damage at lower levels. Additionally, MPs do not suffer from OE changes as they can keep their own buffs loaded while engies do not have this luxury.



Yep, I play a crat and MP. I would think that kind of drop would be obvious since you get the best pet possible around level 150 (lower for MPs) but the opposition keeps getting better and better. Right now an MP or engineer can carry a team at lower levels and then, to a certain extent, has to be carried by a team at the higher levels. 14.2 will probably disrupt that balance, however, and that will have to be addressed. But I still contend that it needs to wait until after Fixers, Adventurers and Crats have been addressed.

What you are saying might have been true at lower levels before 14.2, but it certaintly won't be true any longer. Engies will have OE to deal with as well as the current teaming environment is more indoors than it used to be. Crats don't need augmentations (best charm and calms,7% crit buff as good as anyone's after 14.2, 9% exp bonus, etc., best nuke in game tho very difficult to use) Fixers are in the same situation as we are except everyone knows that Fixers are gimped and adventurers are going to get augmented in 14.4.


And I don't understand how a bunch of engineers can get together to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of their profession and always ignore tradeskills. I had always assumed that people took engineers because they enjoyed the duality of pets and tradeskills, but all I ever hear is that they want to do leet damage.

This is pretty simple. Tradeskills are neither functional nor are engineers the best at them. Traders (the most overblown profession) once again takes the cake here as they have tradeskill buffs and green skills there as well. What tradeskill are you talking about that makes engies better? We aren't better than MPs at nanoprogramming or Traders at anything other than pharm.

We HAVE no pet at high levels. Because we must get buffs to make pets, you have to path the pet through the entire team mission and keep up with other players. That simply isn't going to happen until either a) pet pathing is radically changed or b) a pet command or nano is made to beacon the pet instantly.

Munchausen

[ethernal3]

Hehe.. I'm agreeing with much now after spending 15 hours in Smug's Den.. oh my god.. the horrors..
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"
"!Bubba! was attacked by Den Loot Controller!"

[Team]Ethernal: Sorry guys, pet jumped off the cliff again and it stuck gotta remake
[5 minutes later]
[Team]Ethernal: Sorry guys, pet jumped off the cliff again and it stuck gotta remake
[5 Minutes later]
[Team]Ethernal: Sorry guys, pet jumped off the cliff again and it stuck gotta remake

You get the idea.
~Chris

[Sheffy]

Originally posted by WillForce
nope and I probably never will
after next patch I doubt you will see as many engies playing

Probably because they haven't thought about how this patch will really affect them.

Oh bah. I was going to go into details and mathematical examples of why the patch isn't going to be as bad as people think, but the fewer Engies playing, the better. It just means more classes around to buy buffs from, because I'll still play my engineer (hint: Try teaming with an MP.. even if you don't, it's *really* not going to be that bad. You may not have the best possible pet you can cast, but you can still keep a dark red pet with no trouble at all.)

Regards,

--Tsk