Why Engies are the worst prof

[__________Munchausen]

I've played an engie my whole AO career and Engies weren't always the worst profession but they are now. I'm talking about Engies in the current environment who team and are level 100 or higher. I'll explain why..

1) Vast majority of teams 100+ do team missions.

2) Pet pathing is so bad that it takes aproiximately 10-15 second longer for an expert pather to get the bot to a mob than a player. Also, there will be times where it will get stuck and 30 secs-1 minute of downtime will be needed to get to the next mob. Let alone pathing it several rooms away.

3) High level groups kill mobs in 5-30 seconds depending on team skill.

Conclusion A: Engies are going to do less damage than anyone else with their bot.

4) Engies are at the greatest natural disadvantage as a profession for weapon using. We can use a weapon and do damage that way, but we have dark blue skills and no buffs to improve our damage via weapons. In addition, pathing time often takes away from shooting time.

Conclusion B: Engies will do less damage than others with their weapons.

Conclusion A+B=C: Engies do less damage than any other class.

5) Engie buffs stink. Sympathetics stink. AC stinks. Dmg shields stink. Only reflect shields are any good because they absorb damage, but we don't even have the best ones. I can self-cast any buff but nobody in their right mind wants anything but reflect(there are NCU considerations here that are beyond the scope of this article).

Conclusion D: There aren't buffs (like mp mochams or crat speechs) that are good enough to justify having an engie in a group.

Conclusion C+D= Engies are the worst profession in any team situation.

While other "gimped" classes are being pumped up, their situation is nowhere near as bad. Adventurers can at least use their bad heals and Agents can turn into someone useful and buff. Fixers shoot for more damage and own at least 1 buff that people want. NTs have a useful buff or two, and aren't going to be on the bottom of the damage curve. I'm not saying these profs are great but currently there is no reason to pollute your group with an engie.

FC needs to revisit this situation immediately. Thank you for your time.

Munchausen RK-2 Engie 170

[Corily2]

this is totally right !!!

soldier have better AC / reflect buff then we have

blind nano don't work in pvm while grid armor do

bot r always stuck and mobs is already died when he succeeded going trough door

even if he can go trought the door, daemon r more powerfull and any others profs do more dmg

we don't have any good weapon for engis

[_______________Cokoo]

Engy does have their problems but this profession isnt that bad. It all comes to how many ips is an engy going to pump on weapon skills and how much do you willing to sacrifice your trading skills. There are prices you gotta pay if you want selfcast that slayerdroid at lv160ish.

[Corily2]

lol casting a slayer at lvl 161 is IMPOSSIBLE even if u have vest+painted hood+neleb+cushion !!!!!! (nanomage breed needed)

i said IMPOSSIBLE, u HAVE to reach 190+

so tell me why someone would lost so many hp (about 2k between a lvl 200 nano / solitus) to not be able to selfcast the droid (im not talking about how hard is it to get all items mentioned above)

and raising skill needed for slayerdroid don't cost much ip, only int/stam/agi/mc/ts the tradeskills r usefull for nothing , going worst with the new LLS

i think we r the prof that need the more fix after adven / agent but our fix would not be so hard to make, just fix this ****ING pathfinding and add the kamikaze bot, this would make us a little stronger in pvp (don't know the dmg of a kamikaze bot) and would make us usefull in a team (mobs r always dead when my bot has reached the door of the mobs's room)

[Corily2]

and btw i m not a newbie, my engi is 141 with full set implants 200, neleb, ithcaca 199 and i hope soon a painted hood

int / agi / stam / mc / ts maxed and i still need mochams to cast the guardians

[________________Crin]

Err, exactly what Fixer buff are you talking about. The run buff?

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !!!

Yea right.

And you can't count Grid Armor, not every Fixer has it (like myself for instance).

[Whiterrabbit]

Originally posted by Munchausen
I've played an engie my whole AO career and Engies weren't always the worst profession but they are now.

<snip>

While other "gimped" classes are being pumped up, their situation is nowhere near as bad. Adventurers can at least use their bad heals and Agents can turn into someone useful and buff. Fixers shoot for more damage and own at least 1 buff that people want. NTs have a useful buff or two, and aren't going to be on the bottom of the damage curve. I'm not saying these profs are great but currently there is no reason to pollute your group with an engie.

have you ever played any other class? no.
fixers shoot for more damage than what? Seasoned little boy with a peashooter?
NTs have usefull buffs? which are?

i can give you a few reasons to group with an engi:
1. bot (useless indoors unless you pull to it), useful outdoors for unique stuff camping.
2. beacon warp, nuff said.
3. auras.

theres three.

oh, and i refere you to this thread:
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=22270

[___________Zeroshift]

I have a 90 engineer and we aren't that bad off. We need a bit of help, but we are definately towards the bottom of the list compared to agents/adv/fixer.

I'd like to see weapon tradeskills, and some mechanical gadets for the engineer to use as opposed to just giving us more damage.

[RVWinkle]

Originally posted by Munchausen
We can use a weapon and do damage that way, but we have dark blue skills and no buffs to improve our damage via weapons.

I generally disagree with your post but I'm only interested in clairifying a couple things...

I think you mean to say we have dark blue shotgun skills. Come the IP reset it may be in your best interest to explore other weapon options.

Secondly, we do have a pretty decent line of ranged init and weapon damage buffs. There's also a 120 grenade/pistol buff even though I'm still undecided if it's useful.

[__________Munchausen]

Originally posted by ReelBigFish


have you ever played any other class? no.
fixers shoot for more damage than what? Seasoned little boy with a peashooter?
NTs have usefull buffs? which are?

i can give you a few reasons to group with an engi:
1. bot (useless indoors unless you pull to it), useful outdoors for unique stuff camping.
2. beacon warp, nuff said.
3. auras.

theres three.

oh, and i refere you to this thread:
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...threadid=22270

1) Fixers are not dark blue on every weapon skill other than pistol (which is the worst skill). Therefore, fixers have some configs to do more damage than engies. The run buff and grid armor are both useful. NTs have humidity which is useful in many situations and NTs can use calms and nukes.

2) Bots are useless indoors by your own words. High level groups only operate indoors.

3) Beacon Warp.... useful for...??? Bad groups where somebody dies? Saving before you kill the boss mob? C'mon now. Nobody goes anywhere but Broken Shores....

4) Auras... which there are +25 dmg or 700 or so AC. Awesome. I can see with draws such as these you are salivating to group with an engie.

Other responses forthcoming...

[ethernal3]

Originally posted by misto
lol casting a slayer at lvl 161 is IMPOSSIBLE even if u have vest+painted hood+neleb+cushion !!!!!! (nanomage breed needed)

i said IMPOSSIBLE, u HAVE to reach 190+

so tell me why someone would lost so many hp (about 2k between a lvl 200 nano / solitus) to not be able to selfcast the droid (im not talking about how hard is it to get all items mentioned above)

and raising skill needed for slayerdroid don't cost much ip, only int/stam/agi/mc/ts the tradeskills r usefull for nothing , going worst with the new LLS

i think we r the prof that need the more fix after adven / agent but our fix would not be so hard to make, just fix this ****ING pathfinding and add the kamikaze bot, this would make us a little stronger in pvp (don't know the dmg of a kamikaze bot) and would make us usefull in a team (mobs r always dead when my bot has reached the door of the mobs's room)

Item A) Professor Jone's Vest
Item B) Gaily Painted Hood
Item C) QL 200 Khan
Item D) QL 200 Implants
Item E) Breed Capped AGI/STA/INT
Item F) Implanted AGI/STA/INT ear
Item G) Maxed MC/TS

And it is possisble.. munchausen does it.

~Chris

PS: Engies are not the worst profession, but Pet Pathing is a *HUGE* issue. If pet pathing was fixed everything would be hunky-doory.

[__________Munchausen]

Originally posted by RVWinkle


I generally disagree with your post but I'm only interested in clairifying a couple things...

I think you mean to say we have dark blue shotgun skills. Come the IP reset it may be in your best interest to explore other weapon options.

Secondly, we do have a pretty decent line of ranged init and weapon damage buffs. There's also a 120 grenade/pistol buff even though I'm still undecided if it's useful.

I never said I used a shotgun.... let me clarify my position. Since anyone can use a weapon, to say "you can use a weapon, therefore Engies are good" is completely idiotic. That might make sense if our skills weren't dark blue but since our weapon skills are, you can't be more disadvantaged when we get to weapon skills than we are.

Now, what about the one weapon skill which is only light blue? Pistol. First, Pistols are the worst weapons in the game by far. Show me one that does half as much damage as any shotgun. Second, the buffs that we have to Pistol and ranged init both use 594+ sense imp and psych mod. Engies have no reason to raise these dark blue skills other than these two buffs and you need to be 165+ to even think about spending ips there. The yield from such an expenditure there is poor to say the least.

That we are even talking about spending 83 NCU and 594+ in two dark blue skills to get a 120 pistol buff and 114 ranged init is laughable to say the least. If this is the great defense of the engie, you are already admitting something is seriously wrong.

Munchausen RK-2 Engie

[__________Munchausen]

Originally posted by Cokoo
Engy does have their problems but this profession isnt that bad. It all comes to how many ips is an engy going to pump on weapon skills and how much do you willing to sacrifice your trading skills. There are prices you gotta pay if you want selfcast that slayerdroid at lv160ish.

In other words, engies are every bit as good as professions that have no nanos. The idea that engies are somehow good without a bot (since pathing is awful), without useing our buffs (since our buffs largely stink), but are redeemed by a dark blue weapon skill that anyone can use strikes me as totally short-sighted and fanciful.

Munchausen

P.S. I can equip the same gun you have right now if I wanted. It wouldn't make us good however. We're at the bottom of the stack for people our level Cokoo.

[Whiterrabbit]

Originally posted by Munchausen


1) Fixers are not dark blue on every weapon skill other than pistol (which is the worst skill). Therefore, fixers have some configs to do more damage than engies. The run buff and grid armor are both useful. NTs have humidity which is useful in many situations and NTs can use calms and nukes.

2) Bots are useless indoors by your own words. High level groups only operate indoors.

3) Beacon Warp.... useful for...??? Bad groups where somebody dies? Saving before you kill the boss mob? C'mon now. Nobody goes anywhere but Broken Shores....

4) Auras... which there are +25 dmg or 700 or so AC. Awesome. I can see with draws such as these you are salivating to group with an engie.

Other responses forthcoming...

1. fixers are dark blue on every nanoskill. run buff is useful for getting away. grid armour is rare.

2. unless you pull to it.

3. quite a lot of things, definatly useful in a group situation.

4. i dont know much about them.

[RVWinkle]

This is my last post in this thread because I feel like I'm doing all the research for you that I've already done for myself.


Now, what about the one weapon skill which is only light blue? Pistol.

Grenade and Heavy Weapon are both light blue


First, Pistols are the worst weapons in the game by far. Show me one that does half as much damage as any shotgun.

If you like base damage
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?cmd=view&id=123475

If you like crits
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?cmd=view&id=123627

Both of those do more than "half as much damage" as shotguns.

Now lets look at something even better:
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?cmd=view&id=158967

That thing is more powerful (base and crit) than a soldier favorite
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?cmd=view&id=128908
"Edit: My mistake, the crits are higher but it's pretty close"


Mind you it doesn't have specials but the soldier is 'the' gun class. Woot! It even requires 2 skills that aren't dark blue and we can buff. It's too slow you might say, well it's faster than the Steiner plus this issue leads me to the second part of our discussion.


Second, the buffs that we have to Pistol and ranged init both use 594+ sense imp and psych mod.

Here's a list of the nanos I was talking about that require less than "594+ sense imp and psych mod":

http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29764
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29758
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=81922
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29760

Woot, those require green skills...but there are 2 init buffs you neglected. Incidentally these help any grenade launchers that may be too slow (still faster than Steiners or hammers).
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29188
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29778

Engies have no reason to raise these dark blue skills other than these two buffs

Here's 3:
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29189
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29772
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?...ano=1&id=29785


Now don't go changing your argument on me because I've put too much work into this post already.

[Corily2]

lol this is exactly what a non-engineer player would say, but just start one and you'll c

btw i don't think that chemistry/pharmatech/trap disam r good buffs ....

the only think that would be great it's FC making blidness aura become disk only and make them working in pvm

[Routeen]

First, I have to tip my hat to RV Winkle, for painstakingly assembling the REAL engie advantages that Munch blithely tried to sweep under the carpet.

Entropy Weapon -- +20 dmg for 46 ncu? Who hasnt deleted an essence or a crit buff to pack this puppy on?

Or heard people /shouting by the Grid,"Donating for Trap Artifice -- plz send tell." or even more common,"Will pay 300k for Philosopher's Stone!"

But getting back to the main issue:

The issue is not and has never been can engie's pack on a decent weapon. Of course they can, same as the other weapon challenged classes, especially at the higher lvls.. This is true of everyone, and says NOTHING about how good the class is.

There are only 2 things that separate the classes in fact:
1) skill cost
2) nanos

Engies will never be elite weapon users. They struggle to be barely competent ones. This is a result of not having cheap weapon skills, that cap rather low. And this is obviously an intended feature of the class -- they are supposed to be the premier pet class.

So, if they are going to be decent, we have to look at the pet, and the other nanos that can be cast. What functionality does an engie have? Aside from a few decent acs, the answer is obivous -- the pet.

So, the question is, is the Slayer powerful? Yes. Extremely. Tons of health, decent dmg, can hold aggro if properly trimmed. The Slayer is amazing.

However, is the Slayer useful in the current environment? The answer is, hardly at all. In team missions, the Slayer is barely functional, and a source of continual complaint from everyone else. Most pet users I have seen tend to abandon it, or fight maybe 1 in 3 battles. It has some limited utility vs. the bosses, and that is about all.

So, bottom line, engies in the current high lvl environment are miserable, and struggle to get teams. Their buffs are not highly sought after, and their pet, the central feature of their class, has little value, esp. compared to everyone else. Engies are hit particularly hard, since unlike the other 2 pet classes, they have almost no functionality w/o the pet.

There have been a number of attempts to improve pathing, w/ mixed success. It is currently awful. What is needed is simple: either a /pet command or a cheap nano that teleports the pet to the user, and does it quickly. This would make an engineer a lot less stressful to play, as well as restoring the central feature of the class.

[__________Munchausen]

Replies:

Both of those do more than "half as much damage" as shotguns.

- My mistake... under ideal circumstances they do 70% as much dmg as other professions with weapons. I suppose I shouldn't have exaggerated and instead just focused on my original supposition that engies do the worst damage. Remember the title: Why Engies are the worst profession.

lets look at something even better:
http://antiguardians.org/itemdb.php?cmd=view&id=158967

Grenades don't work (or didn't as of the 13.8, the last time I checked). The arwin also has a clip of 1 so you spend a ton of time reloading, something not factored into your argument that it is better... (once it is fixed mind you....)

Here's a list of the nanos I was talking about that require less than "594+ sense imp and psych mod":

These are known to absolutely blow. +20 damage is the best of them, and nobody in their right mind would spend 46 NCU on such a buff.

Woot, those require green skills...but there are 2 init buffs you neglected. Incidentally these help any grenade launchers that may be too slow (still faster than Steiners or hammers).

I'm sorry that I neglected that engies have a 13 NCU buff that gives 50 to ranged init. A definite hot seller.

Engies have no reason to raise these dark blue skills other than these two buffs

Here's 3:

Yes, these are the juiciest of the bunch. Before we spend an additional few hundred thousand ips, we can (don't sell engies short!) buff chem/pharm by 62, breaking and entering by 32 and disarm by 79! Hold me back! Hold me back!

Now don't go changing your argument on me because I've put too much work into this post already.

My argument is that engies do the worst damage (mostly due to pet pathing) and that our buffs suck. The best of the nanos you selected were a +20 dmg buff (46 NCU), a +50 init buff (13 NCU). These are both wretched and are hardly worth their NCU or even worth their NCU at half the cost. We have only blue skills cept pistol which is relatively poor, both in theory (less damage than shotties on damage calculators) and in practice (high level engies use shotties almost exclusively). You show why a level 150 engie isn't worse than a level 50 trader, but the real question is a level 150 engie as good as any other professsion? In team situations, the resounding answer is no.

Munchausen

[Mysticknight]

you know pet pathing is bad when your outside hunting and the pet goes in the opposite direction and takes two or three times as long to get to the battle.

[bryoni]

i have a lvl 130 engineer (the 2nd highest female clan opiflex : ))

Pet pathing is bad especially in subways and team missions, i am not sure what can be done about this. I Click delete any solo missions with beetles or sub ways, the rest i can cope with. engineers in my guild are always in demand especially when teamed with nt, mp, fixer and possiably a puller. MP and engi can set pets to attack in room to room missions like buildings as mobs are easy to target (you just don't need to charge around). NT clams adds fixers deal good damage with sommers SMG. so all in all not a bad team especially with a doc and big hitter.

Life will be interesting after O/E patch and i will still play my engi.

Nanos.... teams love A/C nanos rest well ok once in a blue moon.

Trade skills my guild love our engi's because of trade skills they don't need to waste ip's and we make them money..

the only thing i would like to see is say one other weapon skill to be green maybe full auto or may be granade (that would be fun)

Also a mastery in intel buff (everyone would want us then LoL). serouisly a self only buff in M/C + T/S based on SI & PM would be fair.

IMO engineers have the a good time of it that is why there are so many (yes we don't pvp are you insane)

Who suffers the worst out of all the profession???? DOCTORS they are totally dependent on teams to lvl from a very early age.... pls do not even debate this.